John Chantler
The immanence of sound
interview by
Matteo Meda
A first general question, just to break it up: do you think there is "still light, outside”?
Yes. I like to maintain some kind of utopian ideas about the possibilities for the future while recognising the frequently grim realities of the present.
Of course this kind of joke was referred to the way I interpreted your last album's title...Also looking to the track titles, it really seems a sort of voyage to a "remained light" towards a sort of decadence. What were you thinking while choosing this concept? What is "light" in the end? What is "the outside" and where can we find it?
Of course. The title is meant to be pretty open. I don’t want to impose any real specific meaning to it. Its a quite mundane thing on one level. Being inside this big, cold empty church when there was gorgeous autumnal light and the last bits of summer sun outside. Also whenever I wasn’t playing the organ I loathed the sound of the church. That big unwieldy reverb starts to take over your thinking at some point. It could also just be a still (unmoving) light… but whatever you want really. Re: ‘The Long Shadow of Decline’ - this was the title of an article I’d read on Britain’s decreasing geopolitical influence. I think the author was disappointed by this state of affairs whereas i’m quite happy for the British political establishment to have even less power and influence considering what a bunch of scumbags they are.
This is one of the links I imagined while listening to the album. Looking a bit to the social / historical worldwide situation of our years, I really feel our times are (still) beyond "the shadow of the decline", in any kind of aspect (facts, economy, politics, human attitude & reactions overall). And many people are going on trying to understand if there is "still light outside" this shadow. Many more probably don't get to the fact they're just composing the shadow itself in some ways, by those attitudes I mentioned before. There is a sort of (natural, maybe obvious) mutual belonging between people's behaviour in their lifetime and their lifetime's connotates. What do you think about this?
I think its worth playing the long game. I’ve just been reading this really good book: Inventing The Future - which argues for the need to work towards developing a long-term strategic / intellectual / evidenced etc position for future post-capitalist possibilities. To have the thinking and preliminary actions in place for when the opportunities for mass change can be taken up (such as there were in the 2008 financial crisis). This is some of the utopian future stuff I was referring to earlier.
Get back a bit to music and sound, I really found this sense of bewilderment into the album's dense soundscape. It really looks like an eternal (and uselessly) fugue from a spiritual decadence, with light coming from some fissures, never able to overtake a general darkness. That's why, in my review, I told about this album as incredibly "concrete" as your music has always been, while much more oriented to "inner being" compare to your previous ones. Was this "bewilderment" one of the soundscape's aims?
I’m not sure I thought about this in that way - I was always conscious that the organ is so loaded with meaning already - I didn’t really want to focus so much on this except to upset some of those associations - for example through the simple act of amplifying the organs extreme registers. Almost all of the harsh high frequency content is the acoustic sound of the organ but its been mixed in a way that its relatively much louder than if you were to hear it against the other registers.
Conceptually ‘The Luminous Ground’ was specifically focussed on some quasi-spiritual arguments set out by Christopher Alexander regarding art and architecture and what processes create work where you can recognise something of yourself (or what he calls an “I-like being”) in a structure – “the practical matter of forging a living centre” - but then the record is all made from synthesizers so there is less of that immediate recall from our collective memories that says the timbre of an organ = spiritual.
Conceptually ‘The Luminous Ground’ was specifically focussed on some quasi-spiritual arguments set out by Christopher Alexander regarding art and architecture and what processes create work where you can recognise something of yourself (or what he calls an “I-like being”) in a structure – “the practical matter of forging a living centre” - but then the record is all made from synthesizers so there is less of that immediate recall from our collective memories that says the timbre of an organ = spiritual.
Going on in a sort of comparison with your previous works, we can say that this album looks like a sort of turning point towards new directions. I've already told about the change towards the "inner being", that is probably one of the main evolution (do you think so?). And I really see this comeback to more instinctive and interior soundscapes as a common element with many recent experiences in atmospheric electronic (here I don't want to use the word "ambient"). It is something I noted in many recent releases: after some years of "phonographies" from external sources (nature/field recordings, instruments, urban landscapes, objects, synthesizers and technologies, etc), it seems that many artists are concentrating a lot on reproducing feelings, thoughts, reflections, mainly working on sound's narrative potential. With "Still Light, Outside", do you feel yourself close to a similar perspective?
This is tricky to answer. I’m uncomfortable in many ways with the idea of explicitly programmatic music. There are a lot of sounds that I love perhaps inexplicably and part of the process for me is about questioning that and trying to set up a context in a piece where I can try to resolve some of these problems of meaning in sound. The nice thing then is that this is all really quite an abstract process so how you will listen to it will (hopefully) have the possibility of a much richer set of associations because I’m not trying to manipulate you towards any specific set of emotions or feelings.
This is tricky to answer. I’m uncomfortable in many ways with the idea of explicitly programmatic music. There are a lot of sounds that I love perhaps inexplicably and part of the process for me is about questioning that and trying to set up a context in a piece where I can try to resolve some of these problems of meaning in sound. The nice thing then is that this is all really quite an abstract process so how you will listen to it will (hopefully) have the possibility of a much richer set of associations because I’m not trying to manipulate you towards any specific set of emotions or feelings.
The choice of a pipe organ as the main sound source for the album seems to go also into that path previously walked for example by Tim Hecker from "Ravedeath, 1972" and Lawrence English in "Wilderness Of Mirrors". And this path directly brings to a new musical characterization of the "sacred" as an extended "inner space", closely linked (maybe as a consequence) to the "sound narrative" need we told about before. Where does the idea of the organ "variations" come from?
I love the sound of pipe organs and the way they activate a room. The physical feeling of your head and body immersed in this sound and the way it spins back from the walls is proper bliss. I’d first played with one for a soundtrack project I did together with my partner Carina Thorén must have been in 2008 or 2009? One of the touchstones for when we were doing that was the beautifully strange organ playing of Chris Abrahams on his first ROOM40 solo disc ‘Thrown’ and working with the pressure changes in the stops and the sliding tones that generates. Alas, none of that stuff was possible with the specific organ I had access to for Still Light - so it became something else. There is also a relationship to this larger Organ Octet ensemble that we had going for quite a few years doing occasional performances using the kind of reed organs that must be very common in Italy (bussilachio?) - everyone played essentially the same instrument and it was easy to get lost in this big mass of tones where you sometimes couldn’t be sure who was doing what.
I love the sound of pipe organs and the way they activate a room. The physical feeling of your head and body immersed in this sound and the way it spins back from the walls is proper bliss. I’d first played with one for a soundtrack project I did together with my partner Carina Thorén must have been in 2008 or 2009? One of the touchstones for when we were doing that was the beautifully strange organ playing of Chris Abrahams on his first ROOM40 solo disc ‘Thrown’ and working with the pressure changes in the stops and the sliding tones that generates. Alas, none of that stuff was possible with the specific organ I had access to for Still Light - so it became something else. There is also a relationship to this larger Organ Octet ensemble that we had going for quite a few years doing occasional performances using the kind of reed organs that must be very common in Italy (bussilachio?) - everyone played essentially the same instrument and it was easy to get lost in this big mass of tones where you sometimes couldn’t be sure who was doing what.
Anyway, in these four suites you made something very different from the musicians I named in the previous questions. In my mind, the album's tracks took the shape of four different perspective of the organ itself as the first protagonist of the soundscape, and not only as a "narrative" instrument. And this idea brings me back to the "concreteness" your music has never lost. Do you imagined the tracks as different planes to "experience" the organ? Have you really always tried to mantain your music as much linked to concrete reality as possible?
I’m happy for you to think about it like this. I’m not sure this is exactly what I set out to do. I think my process of working is maybe a bit more intuitive or at least not as explicitly worked out in that way - i admire for example Rashad Becker’s use of story board/mind mapping stuff that he talks about using - but that is nothing like how i make my music. Its more like pushing and pulling at a spinning lump of wet clay.
Can I ask you some information about the label that published the album? I will confess I have never heard about it, and I expected the album to be out for Room40. I was very surprised when I see the "1703 Skivbolaget" brand, that I think has only this album in its catalogue...
This is my own label for publishing things of mine and likely/hopefully other people in the future. For whatever reason it made sense to try and do this one myself. I’m working on a new LP for room40 right now.
By the way, I know you're working on a new album for Room40. What can you tell about it in advance? Did you try to follow "Still Light, Outside"'s sound path?
This will be different again from Still Light, Outside and hopefully has something else to say. I’m still trying to work it all out. I have some friends also playing other instruments on it, too.
Following on Room40's topic, you're Lawrence English's "right arm" in Room40's team. During the last years I really think the label has expanded a lot its roster, covering new sound languages that had never worked on before. I'm mainly thinking to Erik Griswold, David Shea, Simon James Phillips... musicians that I really find into Lawrence's tastes but represent something new in Room40's catalogue. What are your aims with the label? How much of your interests and artistic sensibility have you brought into the label's activity?
Lawrence is a very dear friend and I have learnt a lot from him. I put a couple of 7”s out many years ago but didn’t really have a clue what I was doing and figured it would be better to offer up help to Lawrence instead. I tried to do what I could for quite a few years — it’s always been led and directed by Lawrence — and when I took on the job doing the programme at Cafe OTO in 2011 that meant I wasn’t able to do anymore. There have been some very nice releases. The Erik Griswold is great and I also can’t wait to hear the next Chris Abrahams record.
Room40 is still doing a great work on physical formats albums, publishing constantly Lps and CDs. Do you still believe in physical formats as a core medium to share music? Do you feel a CD, or an LP, has got a real essence that could work as a further element in a musical product?
I like these physical things, but I also listen to lots of music digitally. There are still people buying these physical records, but the economics of it don’t make a lot of sense. I make pretty much the same amount of money regardless of whether someone buys Still Light, Outside as a digital download or a vinyl LP - but one costs the punter 5 times the cost of the other (with shipping and tax etc).
I had the pleasure to attend 3 different live shows from you this year. And every time you played something completely different from the previous ones. I got the sensation you take each live show as a proper and particular dimension that you develope in itself, don't you? What are, in your opinion, live dimension's expressive and technical potentialities compare to studio researches?
Studio process is slower, fussier in some ways, and less focussed or at least less urgent than a concert situation. I like the pressure of a live concert and would find it both difficult and probably disattisfying to play the same thing everytime. I have a bunch of material to draw upon and the synthesizer has its own possibilities and idiosyncrasies so there are plenty of ways it can go – of course the sound system and the room acoustics also play a big part. Hopefully it works most of the time!
Do you think you will bring "Still Light Outside" and your new album's materials on stage? Do you think those works could fit well in a live show (as I do)?
I’ve done two multi-channel diffusions of ‘The Long Shadow of Decline’ with some additional synthesizer parts and some small edits to the released version. I was really happy with how the last one went at Akousma in Montreal and I will do it again soon at ZKM in Karlsruhe. It’s possible I could use some of those recordings in another live set also, might have it to hand - so if it feels right I can bring it in – generally I prefer to use more ‘skeletal’ recordings and overlap them or use them alongside or feeding the synthesizer – but maybe they could work as part of another thing.
In one of these shows you performed along Stefano Tedesco, creating what I see as a sort of "surgery exploration" of some analogue machines (I think they were oscillators, weren't them?). During your career, you've made lots of collaborations with many artists, sometimes very different from you for background and sounds. What do you bring with you from every collaborative project?
I just got back from a trio concert with Per Zanussi (double Bass) and John Hegre (Guitar) in Norway where we were improvising, but responding to and working within some structures and directions that Per has developed. That kind of thing is good for making me think a bit more about the sounds i’m using and why and its great to work directly with people and try to reach a shared or at least complimentary understanding of what we are all doing - but in general I just like to be open to the situation, maybe push it a bit if its makes sense, but hopefully to also give it some space.
I let this question to the end, as it is a personal curiosity: there are some projects you've made that remains a bit mysterious. For example, there is a collaboration with Lawrence English under the name Holy Family that only produced 2 cassettes, nowadays sold out and very hard-to-find. And again, I found your name into another project on Room40, For Barry Ray. And to conclude, I found out you've been involving also into a very strange experience from Scotland, Maher Shalal Hash Baz. Can you tell me more about this?
Holy Family is some pretty brutish music that Lawrence and I made together a few years ago. Mostly very quickly, in person. They were super fun to make, but it would also be lovely to get to spend a bit more time on something more considered in the future. For Barry Ray is my duo thing with my partner Carina Thorén – I still like the ‘New Days’ record very much – it feels like a foundation for so many of my ongoing musical interests and have fond memories of some of the concerts we played around that time, too.
Maher is a band from Japan, led by Tori Kudo. There is strong Scottish connection via The Pastels who released a lot of their music in the last 15 years. I met Tori Kudo by accident when my WIRE magazine subscription went to his house by mistake. He lives in the same rural prefecture I lived in for two years (from 2001-3). He wrote to me, we traded music and then when we first met he invited me to play with Maher in Tokyo. He is a very unique guy and that accidental meeting was easily one of the most important meetings for me. It indirectly led to almost everything I do now in some (however tangential) way.
As a conclusion, I will repeat a joke I had last year with Lawrence: 2015 is ending, what is (at the moment) your top-10 of this year?
10 is hard, but here are 5 things very quickly – Jim O’Rourke’s ‘Simple Songs - can’t get enough of this… and couldn’t get it out of my head when I was out walking in the mountains this summer (“All your love will never change me!”). Slowing down with Jurg Frey has been a most welcome thing to be able to do this year: 24 Wörter, The String Quartets, Grizzana. All great. The Necks’ magnificent VERTIGO. Fadimoutou Wallet Inamoud - Isswat fills me with joy every time https://sahelsounds.bandcamp.com/album/isswat and lastly Olivia Block’s Aberration of Light - the tape is great but the live rendition at Fylkingen was especially stunning.
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Discography
| JOHN CHANTLER | |
| CD & LP | |
| The Place Between Here And (ltd, Inventing Zero, 2000) | |
| Monoke (Room40, 2003) | |
| Looked In Hands (ltd, Piehead, 2003) | |
 | The Luminous Ground (Room40, 2011) |
| Automatic Music (ltd, LP, Inventing Zero, 2011) | |
| Even Clean Hands Damage The Work (Room40, 2014) |
| Automatic Music, Volume II (ltd, cass, The Tapeworm, 2014) | |
| Still Light, Outside (1703 Skivbolaget, 2015) |
| Altri formati | |
| Just Like Music (MiniCD, Inventing Zero, 2001) | |
| Three Sides Of Sadness (ltd, CDr, Fourier Transform, 2006) | |
| Cambridge Unitarian, April 2012 (MP3, TouchRadio, 2012) | |
| COLLABORAZIONI | |
| Split (ltd, 7", split with Function, Room40, 2007) |
| Split (ltd, CDr, helloSquare, 2008) | |
| U (with Tujiko Noriko & Lawrence English, Room40, 2008) |
| 10 Years Of Room40 (ltd, cass, with Lawrence English, 2010) | |
| FOR BARRY RAY(John Chantler & Carina Thorén) | |
| Romance (as The Swedish Folk Song, | |
| Vågspel (MiniCDr, Room40, 2006) | |
| New Days (Room40, 2007) |
| HOLY FAMILY(Lawrence English & John Chantler) | |
| Anoint (ltd, cass, Digitalis, 2010) | |
| A Rising Tide Of Halos (ltd, cass, Sanity Muffin, 2012) |
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